No stones should be re entered to test judges full stop! Still a form of cheating. What if that gem wins the comp? I bet the entrant wouldn't complain then? If a umpire makes a mistake in grand final and a team loses the game because of a error of judgment then you don't replay the game because the umpire got it wrong. Nor do you re submit a gem because you think a judge has got it wrong due to human error. And it may not be a error, as the gem in question may have got scratched up between submissions and ended up being downgraded on another inspection. You cannot avoid human error in any competition, but you can avoid cheating. When I heard that people are re submitting gems in comps, then governing bodies need to play hardball on entrants so the playing field is fair. Personally, if the technology was cheap enough to laser etch I would make it mandatory, as society has gotten to the point that too many people will exploit any situation to benefit themselves. If the AFG Committee and AFG members are not happy with current AFLACA rules or judging, and AFLACA are happy as things are. Then it's best The AFG kick the crap off their shoes and depart and become autonomous. Regards Cliff
I think that you are making a mountain out of a molehill - I have been around the lapidary world for many years and believe that the number of people that would deliberately cheat is very small. Occasionally there may be a case of failure to understand the rules - a lot of people do not actually read them and often do not own a copy of the book.
The thing that started this thread in the first case was the question of level 4 and level 3. Personally I do not believe that level 4 should exist and once I became Open at level 3, would not have considered entering a lower grade at level 4 just to enhance the possibility of winning. I could, however, have justified doing so by the fact that I was out of novice after one competition and next time had to enter open because there was no intermediate available. Winning again meant I was now permanently in open after two competitions. (In those days we did not have separate categories in the faceting - win one and you were elevated for all types of cut.)
As far as doing our own thing in the AFG - we already have freedom to set requirements in our competitions. We are, however, part of the bigger picture of lapidary and are best served by influencing from inside, rather than taking away our bat and ball like a petulant child.
Anonymous wrote: I'd like to see that any gem entered in any competition is laser etched with the current year when it gets submitted, as no gem should ever be submitted twice in a row ever! Anyone who re-submits a high scoring gem twice is a CHEAT. I hope governing bodies like AFLACA introduce this on ALL gems entered in competitions. Most people are honest, but a small percentage ARE NOT. Don't worry about AFLACA examining the rules, it's best they examine the entrant and the gem! Then the rules can be challenged and altered later on. There is no need for smart remarks that has been removed Webmaster No offense Ed. But admin and yourself post controversial and provocative topics (usually on AFLACA Rules). When other members respond you always reference them ( ie Gordon) as not getting it, or misunderstanding what your talking about. I find this behaviour demeaning to those people. Being a webmaster does not mean that you can be a provocateur. Nor does it mean that perfectly legitimate posts on faceting get deleted because for some reason it gets under your skin. If members are flaming, bullying, or racially vilifying - by all means posts should be deleted. But censoring topics that are perfectly legit is not on. Because of this abuse and abuse towards others, I am withdrawing my membership. And I suspect several others will join me. I've come to the conclusion that hierarchy of the AFG have zero interest in the art form of faceting and are more interested in the internal political arena. Only a small handful of people have actually contributed worthwhile topics about faceting and gems on this forum in the last six months, which is basically Gordon and myself. Those of us who contribute photos of their latest gem designs do not get a response, which suggests that very few people even look at this forum, or have tried to be part of a community but have found it to be unfriendly and non-welcoming. I for one have at all times tried promote the artform and defended the governing body of AFLACA (which I have nothing to do with). While the AFG virtually calls them out as cheats. These people surrender their time and effort with no financial reward so others can enter a competition, and all your hear is bellyaching. I for one will continue to promote the art and the joy of faceting, and present to the thousands of my subscribers what fun, joy and rewards such a craft can bring......Regards Cliff
I'd like to see that any gem entered in any competition is laser etched with the current year when it gets submitted, as no gem should ever be submitted twice in a row ever! Anyone who re-submits a high scoring gem twice is a CHEAT. I hope governing bodies like AFLACA introduce this on ALL gems entered in competitions. Most people are honest, but a small percentage ARE NOT. Don't worry about AFLACA examining the rules, it's best they examine the entrant and the gem! Then the rules can be challenged and altered later on.
There is no need for smart remarks that has been removed Webmaster
No offense Ed. But admin and yourself post controversial and provocative topics (usually on AFLACA Rules). When other members respond you always reference them ( ie Gordon) as not getting it, or misunderstanding what your talking about. I find this behaviour demeaning to those people. Being a webmaster does not mean that you can be a provocateur. Nor does it mean that perfectly legitimate posts on faceting get deleted because for some reason it gets under your skin. If members are flaming, bullying, or racially vilifying - by all means posts should be deleted. But censoring topics that are perfectly legit is not on. Because of this abuse and abuse towards others, I am withdrawing my membership. And I suspect several others will join me. I've come to the conclusion that hierarchy of the AFG have zero interest in the art form of faceting and are more interested in the internal political arena. Only a small handful of people have actually contributed worthwhile topics about faceting and gems on this forum in the last six months, which is basically Gordon and myself. Those of us who contribute photos of their latest gem designs do not get a response, which suggests that very few people even look at this forum, or have tried to be part of a community but have found it to be unfriendly and non-welcoming. I for one have at all times tried promote the artform and defended the governing body of AFLACA (which I have nothing to do with). While the AFG virtually calls them out as cheats. These people surrender their time and effort with no financial reward so others can enter a competition, and all your hear is bellyaching. I for one will continue to promote the art and the joy of faceting, and present to the thousands of my subscribers what fun, joy and rewards such a craft can bring......Regards Cliff
I have been following this thread and from a faceting competition point of view I don’t see what the problem is, I’m a member of the OZ, US, and UK guilds and compete in their comps. They all stipulate what the cut is and in most cases what its cut from, its not possible to enter a pre-cut stone.
Cliff Doornkamp wrote: Anonymous wrote: I'd like to see that any gem entered in any competition is laser etched with the current year when it gets submitted, as no gem should ever be submitted twice in a row ever! Anyone who re-submits a high scoring gem twice is a CHEAT. I hope governing bodies like AFLACA introduce this on ALL gems entered in competitions. Most people are honest, but a small percentage ARE NOT. Don't worry about AFLACA examining the rules, it's best they examine the entrant and the gem! Then the rules can be challenged and altered later on. There is no need for smart remarks that has been removed Webmaster No offense Ed. But admin and yourself post controversial and provocative topics (usually on AFLACA Rules). When other members respond you always reference them ( ie Gordon) as not getting it, or misunderstanding what your talking about. I find this behaviour demeaning to those people. Being a webmaster does not mean that you can be a provocateur. Nor does it mean that perfectly legitimate posts on faceting get deleted because for some reason it gets under your skin. If members are flaming, bullying, or racially vilifying - by all means posts should be deleted. But censoring topics that are perfectly legit is not on. Because of this abuse and abuse towards others, I am withdrawing my membership. And I suspect several others will join me. I've come to the conclusion that hierarchy of the AFG have zero interest in the art form of faceting and are more interested in the internal political arena. Only a small handful of people have actually contributed worthwhile topics about faceting and gems on this forum in the last six months, which is basically Gordon and myself. Those of us who contribute photos of their latest gem designs do not get a response, which suggests that very few people even look at this forum, or have tried to be part of a community but have found it to be unfriendly and non-welcoming. I for one have at all times tried promote the artform and defended the governing body of AFLACA (which I have nothing to do with). While the AFG virtually calls them out as cheats. These people surrender their time and effort with no financial reward so others can enter a competition, and all your hear is bellyaching. I for one will continue to promote the art and the joy of faceting, and present to the thousands of my subscribers what fun, joy and rewards such a craft can bring......Regards Cliff Thanks for your input Cliff, may I point out that the first comment was about how an open level 3 facetor could if they wished, could enter as a NOVICE in a level 4 competition. WHY ?? Also I like to point out again Rule B5.2 : Each entry is NOT judge against its Competitors, but is assessed against an established standard and the resulting score is a measurement of EXCELLECE achieved or how nearly it reaches the standard. So is the standard of level 4 higher than level 3 Not according to the rule above Regards Ed
Anonymous wrote: I'd like to see that any gem entered in any competition is laser etched with the current year when it gets submitted, as no gem should ever be submitted twice in a row ever! Anyone who re-submits a high scoring gem twice is a CHEAT. I hope governing bodies like AFLACA introduce this on ALL gems entered in competitions. Most people are honest, but a small percentage ARE NOT. Don't worry about AFLACA examining the rules, it's best they examine the entrant and the gem! Then the rules can be challenged and altered later on. There is no need for smart remarks that has been removed Webmaster No offense Ed. But admin and yourself post controversial and provocative topics (usually on AFLACA Rules). When other members respond you always reference them ( ie Gordon) as not getting it, or misunderstanding what your talking about. I find this behaviour demeaning to those people. Being a webmaster does not mean that you can be a provocateur. Nor does it mean that perfectly legitimate posts on faceting get deleted because for some reason it gets under your skin. If members are flaming, bullying, or racially vilifying - by all means posts should be deleted. But censoring topics that are perfectly legit is not on. Because of this abuse and abuse towards others, I am withdrawing my membership. And I suspect several others will join me. I've come to the conclusion that hierarchy of the AFG have zero interest in the art form of faceting and are more interested in the internal political arena. Only a small handful of people have actually contributed worthwhile topics about faceting and gems on this forum in the last six months, which is basically Gordon and myself. Those of us who contribute photos of their latest gem designs do not get a response, which suggests that very few people even look at this forum, or have tried to be part of a community but have found it to be unfriendly and non-welcoming. I for one have at all times tried promote the artform and defended the governing body of AFLACA (which I have nothing to do with). While the AFG virtually calls them out as cheats. These people surrender their time and effort with no financial reward so others can enter a competition, and all your hear is bellyaching. I for one will continue to promote the art and the joy of faceting, and present to the thousands of my subscribers what fun, joy and rewards such a craft can bring......Regards Cliff Thanks for your input Cliff, may I point out that the first comment was about how an open level 3 facetor could if they wished, could enter as a NOVICE in a level 4 competition. WHY ?? Also I like to point out again Rule B5.2 : Each entry is NOT judge against its Competitors, but is assessed against an established standard and the resulting score is a measurement of EXCELLECE achieved or how nearly it reaches the standard. So is the standard of level 4 higher than level 3 Not according to the rule above Regards Ed
Also I like to point out again Rule B5.2 :
Each entry is NOT judge against its Competitors, but is assessed against an established standard and the resulting score is a measurement of EXCELLECE achieved or how nearly it reaches the standard.
So is the standard of level 4 higher than level 3 Not according to the rule above
Regards
Frank Woodward wrote: I have been following this thread and from a faceting competition point of view I don’t see what the problem is, I’m a member of the OZ, US, and UK guilds and compete in their comps. They all stipulate what the cut is and in most cases what its cut from, its not possible to enter a pre-cut stone.
May I point out that I do not agree with most of what has been written .
But the first two stones in Novice or Intermediate in Level 1,2,3 and 4 are in most cases are the same cut in any competition but may be in different types of stones hope this helps
Ed
Anonymous wrote: Frank Woodward wrote: I have been following this thread and from a faceting competition point of view I don’t see what the problem is, I’m a member of the OZ, US, and UK guilds and compete in their comps. They all stipulate what the cut is and in most cases what its cut from, its not possible to enter a pre-cut stone. Hi Frank May I point out that I do not agree with most of what has been written . But the first two stones in Novice or Intermediate in Level 1,2,3 and 4 are in most cases are the same cut in any competition but may be in different types of stones hope this helps Regards Ed
So this brings me to the second part of this post. It has been very obvious and clear that AFLACA'S rules have frustrated, confused or perplexed many in the AFG that have competed in the past or present. This confusion in rules, as addressed in the "May-June Facet Talk" article had led from a Russian Cutter winning a 2010 IFC to the conduct of "Competition Committees" to being virtually being called out as cheats, as they could enter into competitions they organise giving them a advantage time wise, which is a joke as there is plenty of time to cut a stone for a competition anyway. So the motivation of the article wasn't entirely about rules and confusion, as there were various other underlying issues bubbling under the surface.
My point is- that for whatever reason AFLACA'S rules and guidelines as confusing as they are have brought out the worst-
1- By admission, people have challenged judges by re-submitting cut stones in competitions.
2- Challenged the integrity of competition organises.
3- And question the integrity of the rules.
This is why I believe more scrutiny needs to applied to legitimise gems being submitted. The majority of people play by the rules, but a small percentage in my opinion are not. Nobody would want to enter a competition knowing that others are re-submitting previous cut gems from previous competitions. I've worked my butt off cutting a gem for a open competition in 2019. I'd be pissed and others would also be, knowing that others are just resubbing.
Finally, the sawing of sawdust surrounding the confusion and perplexity of AFLACA'S rules has gone on way too long. There is not a thing Ed, myself or anyone can change or challenge. I believe, that the AFG has one sitting member on AFLACA panel that can bring forth a motion to either change the rules or seek advice on the clarity of rules. There must be a reason why the majority of the other sitting panel members are happy with the existing rules and guidelines. That may be the very question that needs to be addressed? Why are the rules set out like they are?
Regards Cliff
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