I think a reference to Paul's email above and the early draft proposal will answer most of those points.
If passed there will be separate races for the v12 Jag whereas there are none at present.
The argument that a section will be there for the elite with concave gear is also applicable to members who have their own machines for faceting with flat facets.
I don't own a concave facetor but it wont stop me experimenting with home made gear.
Maybe a comp will provide an incentive for some of the clubs to set up concave gear for their members.
Regards Gordon Perkins
There is no question of existing competitors being at a disadvantage, because the sections for normal "flat" faceting would still exist, so all people with conventional machines are covered. You mention hand cut stones - you can actually do that now, there being nothing in the rules that says that you have to use a machine. If you are good enough, you can hand hold and facet a stone on a sheet of glass - you will need to be very good to match a decent machine in achieving correct angles and meets. Having said that, we actually teach juniors to do simple hand faceted stones (freeform designs) at the lapidary club.
Bruce, regarding hand cutting. We had a retired engineer give us a demo of his wooden faceting jigs. They were a series of triangles cut from floor boards.
Each with an angle corresponding to the angle he wanted to cut. He had a home made indexing arrangement on the end of his dop and sanded the stone on a $20 tool sharpening lap block from Trade Tools. Then finished on glass.
Quite ingenious and a good demo of lateral thinking.
Regards
Gordon Perkins
I won’t be concave faceting either as I don’t have or intend to purchase the required equipment. But I was very interested in the other proposals in the survey, which I answered.
The Fancy, Freeform and Novelty cuts in a competition would open up a whole new world in competition faceting. Currently I enter both the OZ, US and UK comps, in those you are told what design to cut and in most cases what it’s made of and what size it is.
I know that makes for a perfectly level playing field for every competitor, but having a Freeform/Fancy cut section where you are totally free do your own thing to me is a great idea.
The Central Qld clubs were running such a comp when I last looked. You had to submit the Gemcad diagram or incur a 5 pt penalty.
When I suggested it to a Judge I was met with the sweeping statement "No judge would judge such a comp." No explanation as to why. The problem with the approach is it does not allow an informed debate or for real issues to be explored.
I expect that if we try such a comp it'll need to be run for a couple of years to get interest going in the competition.
I would be interested in such a competition.
Bruce Copper wrote: There is no question of existing competitors being at a disadvantage, because the sections for normal "flat" faceting would still exist, so all people with conventional machines are covered. You mention hand cut stones - you can actually do that now, there being nothing in the rules that says that you have to use a machine. If you are good enough, you can hand hold and facet a stone on a sheet of glass - you will need to be very good to match a decent machine in achieving correct angles and meets. Having said that, we actually teach juniors to do simple hand faceted stones (freeform designs) at the lapidary club. I hope someday to enter a stone I cut in the novice section someday. I doubt that I will ever concave facet for many years to come as I'm learning the art form. I'm not totally against a section for fantasy or concave cuts as it gives those with that artistic ability to enter their work. Like many forms of art, change is inevitable. Sometimes you wonder if these changes are a advancement in artistry or the loss of artistic skills due to new concepts and technology. Just like many modern day portrait or landscape artists have lost the technical ability to paint like a Rembrandt. And you wonder in the next 20 to 40 years where faceting is heading, due to the seeming aging population of those who facet or are in gem clubs. I'm 51 and I'm the youngest person in our gem club. But maybe more modern creations in faceting may inspire a whole bunch of youngsters to cut stones in a different way. Regards Cliff
I hope someday to enter a stone I cut in the novice section someday. I doubt that I will ever concave facet for many years to come as I'm learning the art form. I'm not totally against a section for fantasy or concave cuts as it gives those with that artistic ability to enter their work. Like many forms of art, change is inevitable. Sometimes you wonder if these changes are a advancement in artistry or the loss of artistic skills due to new concepts and technology. Just like many modern day portrait or landscape artists have lost the technical ability to paint like a Rembrandt. And you wonder in the next 20 to 40 years where faceting is heading, due to the seeming aging population of those who facet or are in gem clubs. I'm 51 and I'm the youngest person in our gem club. But maybe more modern creations in faceting may inspire a whole bunch of youngsters to cut stones in a different way. Regards Cliff
You won’t be able to judge fancy cuts with the current stone judging method, other than the usual requirements. Such as meet point accuracy, polish, girdle thickness etc. The way I see it is your creating an image in the pavilion which is in effect an art form and like paintings can only be judged by a team of judges that can see all the entrants at once.
So in my way of thinking the stone would have to have points awarded for both its quality of cutting and artistic value. Probably the same for freeform cuts because again they will have to be seen together.
Frank
The visual appeal can still be judged individually and awarded a score. Currently in lapidary classes there is provision for aesthetic appeal to be judged by a second judge and the score added to the primary judging result. Comparison judging of multiple stones would be fraught with many dangers - lighting variations, etc.
Frank Woodward wrote: You won’t be able to judge fancy cuts with the current stone judging method, other than the usual requirements. Such as meet point accuracy, polish, girdle thickness etc. The way I see it is your creating an image in the pavilion which is in effect an art form and like paintings can only be judged by a team of judges that can see all the entrants at once. So in my way of thinking the stone would have to have points awarded for both its quality of cutting and artistic value. Probably the same for freeform cuts because again they will have to be seen together. Regards Frank Frank you make I very good point about judging methods. As far as concave machine cutting you would expect judges to have significant years in concave cutting themselves. What is the main criteria? As you said, "You won’t be able to judge fancy cuts with the current stone judging method, other than the usual requirements. Such as meet point accuracy, polish, girdle thickness etc". So it has based on artistic and quality. Do we even have judges with at least 10 years expertise in concave faceting and understanding of artistic expression in Australia? The standard in judging needs to be set very high from day one if there was a separate section for concave faceting. I have to admit when you see some of these concave designs they are simply dazzling. Certainly adds another dimension to the brilliance of a gem. Regards Cliff
Frank you make I very good point about judging methods. As far as concave machine cutting you would expect judges to have significant years in concave cutting themselves. What is the main criteria? As you said, "You won’t be able to judge fancy cuts with the current stone judging method, other than the usual requirements. Such as meet point accuracy, polish, girdle thickness etc". So it has based on artistic and quality. Do we even have judges with at least 10 years expertise in concave faceting and understanding of artistic expression in Australia? The standard in judging needs to be set very high from day one if there was a separate section for concave faceting. I have to admit when you see some of these concave designs they are simply dazzling. Certainly adds another dimension to the brilliance of a gem.
Regards Cliff
I don't see the problem with judging concave facets the same way as flat facets where concave facets replace flat facets, or with a set design. Asthet appeal
Where concave facets or grooves are cut in a freeform method without set design it is similar to carving or itaglio. But even then there will be flat facets to judge and the visual impact will be important.
I doubt many competition committees would be allowing competitors to do more than a set design until after the idea has sunk in and the judges are comfortable judgin concave facets.
Regards Gordon
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