Australian Facetors' Guild Limited

What Changes Should We Ŕequest to the Competition Rules?

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  • 12 Jul 2017 7:54 AM
    Message # 4969132

    As a Guild we have a role to play in setting and maintaining standarde.  To date this has largely been by influencing the rules of competitions published by AFLACCA.  I hope this topic generates discussion on the rules.

    1. We have faceting courses. Why not introduce a competancy level of Master Facetor to recognise high achievers in the craft?

    It would provide a further level at which we could compete, provide an incentive to pursue further studdy in faceting and should allow mastee facetors to more effectively market their skills.

    2. Why not expand the definition of curved surface to include flat concave cut surfaces such as grooves cut into a gem to allow all conceivable OMF cuts to be  catered for?  Do we need a definition of concave surface covering all OMF cutting techniques not falling into the current definition of curved surface?


    Last modified: 24 Aug 2017 6:48 AM | Anonymous member
  • 24 Jul 2017 10:20 PM
    Reply # 4991614 on 4969132
    On the Aussie Lapidary Forum are some pictures of snowflake cut faceted stones, where the gurdle has been cut into. https://m.facebook.com/AussieSapphire/photos/a.207122486001837.50388.207104872670265/1370517152995692/?type=3 One of the regular contributors is experimenting cutting such a design on the edge of the lap on his GemMaster. Would such a cut qualify as a concave facet? It is certainly a novelty cut, and one that should be able to be cut on all machines. regards Gordon
    Last modified: 24 Jul 2017 10:21 PM | Anonymous member
  • 09 Aug 2017 8:07 AM
    Reply # 5019762 on 4969132

    Clarification of Rules

    I believe there should be more guidance on how a competitor’s work is judged in the competitor and judges rules. 

     

    We were recently discussing rules at the Moreton Bay Group of the Facetor’s guild and a judge made a good point.  When judging an Oblong cut, he judges the L/W ratio of the finished stone.  His view is that the L/W ratio influences the shape of the stone and the facets.  He also pointed out that some stewards and competitors do not like this and it is apparent not all judges apply this standard.

     

    This leads to two main issues, all judges should interpret the rules in the same way, otherwise it gives stewards in a competition and their immediate family an unfair advantage as they will know who the judge is and be able to focus on the judges preferences, more so in competitions where points are awarded for subjective measures such as degree of difficulty and aesthetic appeal.

     

    The second issue is that the guild allows competitors to adjust the angles of the design using the tangent ratio method (or Gemcad).  Doing so gives competitors an edge when the design is sub-optimal for the prescribed stone.  Before joining the Guild I asked at club level whether I could adjust the angles and at the time a judge there told me no, as the angles are prescribed in the design, they can’t be changed.

     

    The feedback from the floor and the judge was that it wasn’t necessary to write a rule enshrining the unwritten rule that angles can be changed using a tangent ratio method (Gemcad is the easiest) provided that the facet shape wasn’t changed into the rules. 

     

    It seems angles can’t be easily judged but whether a competitor has followed the diagram religiously or adjusted angles can easily be checked by a judge with a set of feeler gauges and callipers, by measuring the girdle and the height of the stone.  From this the sum of T/W and C/W can be checked against the height of the stone. 

     

    Now we have two competing views by judges.  One is that the facet angles can be adjusted as long as the shape of the facets remains the same.  The other is that as an L/W Ratio is prescribed, it can’t be changed, although it seems not all judges follow this rule. 

     

    Requiring adherence to the metrics in the cutting instructions prevents competitors from optimising facet angles for the material being cut.  It may make competing in the competition less attractive, personally I don’t want to waste my time cutting what I think is a sub-optimal stone.

     

    If we require the ratios to be maintained, does this mean we need to measure the size of floating facets and steps in the stone to make sure they are in the same proportion of W as on the diagram, or is this merely a visual check?  I doubt many clubs have accurate graticules available to their members so they can make the necessary measurements and the feedback I have received is that many new facetors don’t know what a graticule is used for.

     

    If we police L/W we should have tolerances to cater for measuring equipment accuracy.  For example my graphite jawed calipers are accurate to 0.1 of a mm rather than the 0.02mm accuracy of cheap steel jawed calipers.  Consequently plus or minus 0.12mm should be a   minimum tolerance to cater for variations in the accuracy of different measuring equipment.  Should we also allow a higher tolerance for Novices, some may be entering a stone cut during classes at their lapidary club? 

     

    Allowing a competitor to tangent ratio change angles tests a competitor’s technical expertise and allows for designs to be optimised for the set material.  I believe this should be encouraged as it helps develop a facetor’s skills.

     

    On the other hand the judge has a point, the L/W ratio of an Oblong cut is important, if it is not right, none of the corner angles work or the cut corners vary in size.  But if we religiously police the L/W of a stone, where do we stop?  We need guidance to reconcile these two competing interpretations of the rules, and guidance on the tolerances allowed. 

     

    For this reason I propose we create two new rules to work towards uniformity of judging and certainty for competitors.

     

    1.    Competitors are allowed to change the angles of the facets in the design provided they use a Tangent Ratio Method (such as  employed by Gemcad) so that the shape of the facets when viewed parallel to the C axis of the stone do not change UNLESS the competition schedule states otherwise.

     

    2.  The ratios of the table width to stone width may be judged to a tolerance of plus or minus 0.12mm, but the remaining ratios are not to be judged UNLESS the competition schedule states otherwise.  A competition schedule stating otherwise must be assumed to require a tolerance of plus or minus 0.12mm if it does not state the required tolerance.

     

    Last modified: 10 Aug 2017 7:07 AM | Anonymous member
  • 30 Sep 2017 5:55 PM
    Reply # 5288446 on 4969132
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Gordon, take a look at the new tab above "News" this may be where to air your views as well.

  • 19 Feb 2018 10:59 PM
    Reply # 5744602 on 4969132

    I noticed there was a paragraph on the proposed rule changed to allow concave faceting in the summary to the last AFG meeting inserted into Facet Talk No. 219.

    Would the Guild make the proposal for the rule change available for comment by members before sending the proposal to AFLACA. 

    Yours sincerely

    Gordon Perkins


    Last modified: 19 Feb 2018 11:01 PM | Anonymous member
  • 20 Feb 2018 7:50 AM
    Reply # 5745468 on 5744602
    Anonymous member (Administrator)
    Gordon Perkins wrote:

    I noticed there was a paragraph on the proposed rule changed to allow concave faceting in the summary to the last AFG meeting inserted into Facet Talk No. 219.

    Would the Guild make the proposal for the rule change available for comment by members before sending the proposal to AFLACA. 

    Yours sincerely

    Gordon Perkins



    Hi Gordon 

    I can assure you that ANY changes to the rules. all AFG members would be asked to make comments and then it would be Vote on at a AGM

    hope the helps

    Regards

    Ed  

    AFG Vice-President

  • 21 Feb 2018 4:48 AM
    Reply # 5772067 on 4969132

    I think some of our members are getting ahead of them self in respect to faceting rules as any changes have to be first put to the J&R members of the guild and then the members for comment and finally should the members agree about the changes they have to be put to the AFLACA J&R before they can be put to use in a competition. I also think that the rules as they are a set standard for cutting for all cutters to work towards achieving a 100% correct stone which some of the faceting community  have done so in recent competition I know this as I pencil for Paul at most of the faceting competitions that we judge down here in Sydney.


  • 21 Feb 2018 7:35 AM
    Reply # 5778947 on 4969132

    Ed, I hope Ron's comments about members getting ahead of themselves is heeded.

    The report in the FT219 indicated a complete rewrite of the proposal before taking it to the next j&r meeting at Gemboree.  That is about 5 weeks away. 

    The last rule change was simply made at an AFLACCA meeting at the last Gemboree without wider consultation or input from members.

    I viewed it as a kneejerk reaction to a hitherto uncontemplated interpretation of the rules. 

    My objection was that the unseemly haste of the last rule change denied members an opportunity for input and set a dangerous precedent. 

    I welcome the opportunity to comment on the new proposal.

    Yours sincerely 

    Gordon Perkins 

    Last modified: 21 Feb 2018 7:36 AM | Anonymous member
  • 21 Feb 2018 7:06 PM
    Reply # 5807290 on 4969132
    Anonymous member (Administrator)

    Guys, the opportunity to have your say has been available since September 2017 when this all kicked off from the session at the Muster.

    The proposal and survey has been on the website for all to read and comment on.

     I only received 14 replies to the survey, and I thank the members that sent in their surveys. I think 4-5 months is sufficient time for you to have read the proposal and replied to the survey.

    I did  give you the opportunity to have your say, there was even a reminder in FT218 under my President's report.

     All the survey responses I received had constructive ideas which I incorporated into a revised proposal where the Group 39 idea is now abandoned. The proposal now has the intention of expanding the already existing Group 11 into 5 Sections, Fancy Cut, Concave Cuts, Freeform Cuts, Fantasy Cuts and Novelty Cuts. I have put together a proposal that is now closed to any more comments and is now in the hands of the AFLACA J&R Delegates around Australia for their perusal. This proposal will be discussed amongst the J&R Delegates at the J&R Meeting to be held at the Gemboree at Willunga.

    I have forged ahead to test the waters in AFLACA. It would have taken another year or so for anything to happen otherwise and would have died from lack of interest.

    I have also requested some Rule changes regarding L/W ratios, some tidying up of the wording with regards to Standard Cuts and curved facets and a few other minor changes.

    We will have to wait & see now what comes out of the J&R Meeting at Willunga.

    Paul

    Last modified: 21 Feb 2018 7:09 PM | Anonymous member (Administrator)
  • 06 Mar 2018 3:21 PM
    Reply # 5891714 on 4969132
    Anonymous

    It will be interesting to see what the findings will be on concave faceting. As a novice that has been faceting for less than 12 months I felt I probably didn't have the expertise to send in a official response. Unofficially, and this is only a personal point of view from a novice if concave facets were to be considered as a option in competition judging it could leave many faceters at a disadvantage. What I mean to say is-  from what I understand from concave faceting your machine will need a special attachment  to be able concave facet, and the majority of machines couldn't even house this specific concave cutting attachment. To me it just seems like sending in a V 12 Jaguar to win a race at Bathhurst against the V 6s and V 8s and ultimately win the prize (as they did). The point is how far do you go to win a competition and where do you draw a line in the sand to the capabilities of what a machine can offer? By opening a new group for fantasy/ concave faceting leaves the door wide open for more and more future technological changes. And having this group may only give a small select group to enter into it and be guaranteed to win some sort of prize ( Just like those jags). If there was a another group by definition of fantasy cuts or concave cuts entrants could also send preformed hand cut and polished gems not necessarily even produced by a machine. Not even sure if this could cause another ruling. Maybe Paul would like to test the waters on that one if another group was formed to accommodate concave faceting. 

    Last modified: 06 Mar 2018 3:42 PM | Anonymous
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